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以下為英文原文：

Guancha: One of the most widely reported results of the BRICS summit was its expansion, with six new members joining. What do you think these new members bring to the table?

Sooklal: Well, firstly, BRICS expansion was one of the key outcomes of the 15 BRICS summits in Johannesburg, as you recall that last year at the virtual summit held under China's chairship, there was a decision by leaders to look into a question of expansion. And of course, it was expected that this summit would respond to the leader's call to the issue of expansion, and the leaders did take a decision in this regard. Now, of course, in order for us to have considered expansion, we had to first finalize the mandate given to Sherpas by the leaders at last year's summit, where they tasked help us to work out guiding principles, standard criteria and procedure for expansion. So this document was adopted by consensus and referred to the foreign ministers who then could look into the question of which countries, as you know, there were 22 countries that formally approach BRICS member states to become members. Now, the leaders applied themselves to this and had an in depth discussion that lasted several hours at the BRICS Retreat on the evening of 20th of August in Johannesburg.

I think it's important to note that of the six countries, there is an important geographical spread. We have an additional country from Latin America and the form of Argentina. We have two African countries, Egypt. As far as Africa is concerned, it is an Arab country but it's an African country in the first instance, as a member of the African Union. And of course Ethiopia. Then we have three countries from West Asia, Saudi Arabia, UAE and Iran. I think this is a good balance given that we have a country from South Asia and the form of India and China from Northeast Asia. So you have an excellent spread, geographical spread from nearly all of the regions of the world pertaining to the developing world. So I think this is an important addition in terms of geographical balance to the BRICS family.

Now if you look at the collective weight of these countries collectively, we will now account for 46% of the global population as against the 42% that we were, we will account for 29% of global nominal GDP. With the entry of Argentina, we have two of the regional leader in Latin America. Ethiopia is an important country in terms of being the only African country that was not colonized. Secondly, it is a seat of the African Union. But in its own right, Ethiopia is an ancient culture, ancient civilization. So it brings all of that into the BRICS family.

Now if you look at Western Asia, all three countries are important. Saudi Arabia, Iran, very important countries in the region. They are the regional leaders, the largest nations, Saudi Arabia, about 38 million, and Iran over 80 million people. Likewise, the UAE, maybe a small country, but it is a very pivotal country in Western Asia. In fact, it is a one of the remarkable countries that have progressed from being just a mere fishing village in the 70s, today becoming one of the most dynamic countries. It has the second largest GDP among Gulf countries, second to Saudi Arabia, and one of the most cosmopolitan countries in the region.

Each of these countries bring in an additional dimension in enriching BRICS, not just in terms of trade, in terms of GDP, in terms of technologies, in terms of the peoples, the diversity of the cultures, the civilizations and the richness they bring into the BRICS family. So from a multi-dimensional point of view you have greater diversity, greater weightage and of course all three West Asian countries are very rich in terms of fossil fuels, especially oil and gas. And in addition to Egypt as well and Russia and Brazil, BRICS will account for over 40% of global fossil fuel reserves. And this is also highly significant.

Guancha: On the Middle East in particular, do you view this just in terms of regional diversification and their greater economic weight, or is there another dimension to the focus on the Middle East of this year's expansion. Over the past few months, there's been a lot of discussion about reduced US influence in the region, especially after China brokered the Saudi Arabia and Iran rapprochement.

Sooklal: I think Western Asia has always been a very important strategic region in the world, given its geopolitical location in terms of its rich deposits of oil and gas. That is why you have had a deep focus on this region, especially from Western countries. But these countries also want to diversify and have stronger relations with the Global South. And I think the intervention of China earlier this year in bringing rapprochement between Saudi Arabia and Iran was a major development in the region. And that rapprochement has had a ripple effect in terms of normalizing relations between countries of the region, we have seen normalization of relations amongst the Gulf countries with the Iran. Just this week, Iran and Saudi Arabia exchange ambassadors. And I think that's a very positive development, not just for the two countries, but for the region as a whole. And I think also for the global geopolitical and geo-security situation, this is a positive development where you can have peace in a region that has been the fraught with major difficulties. We've always maintained that Iran and Saudi Arabia hold the key to peace in the region. And as long as they were not speaking to each other and there were tensions between them, the region as a whole suffered.

So you can see that with their rapprochement, countries are now starting to exchange high level delegations, embassies are being opened, normalization of relations and there's greater opportunity for peace and development in the region. So I think this has been a very positive development. Now, having both of them as part of the BRICS family is also a positive development because it will give them a further opportunity, a further platform to interact with each other on a regular basis being part of the BRICS family. So I think it was indeed a very positive development for the BRICS leaders to invite both these countries together with the UAE, recognizing the strategic significance of this region and also remember all three of these countries applied to become BRICS members. So they saw the value in associating with BRICS and they see that their future is tied with the future development of BRICS and they can contribute significantly to the future development of breaks.

Guancha: How do you think the introduction of new members into BRICS will be continued in the coming years? Some media reports had claimed that India or Brazil wanted to set stricter standards on the admission of new members, while China and Russia were more unequivocally supportive of admitting new members. What have you heard, and how this dynamic affected the statement they released?

Sooklal: I have been integrally involved in this process from its outset and being chair of the Sherpas Group. There is no truth to the fact that India and Brazil were opposed to expansion. I think this is misinformation. And I want to correct that. All of the BRICS countries had agreed on expansion. Where there were differences of opinion initially was the criteria that we need to develop. And this was an intense process.

As you know, the process started on the China's chairship last year. There were two meetings then, but very little progress was made. But when South Africa took over the Chirship this year, we had at least six meetings at the level of Sherpa to Sherpa, was a very intense process. All countries were committed to expansion because that was the decision of all of the five leaders last year to start the expansion process. So there were no country opposed to expansion.

In any multilateral organization like BRICS, all countries would want to ensure that their positions are reflected. And eventually, through consensus, we were able to confirm the document that pertains to criteria and standards and so forth. And this made possible the movement in regard to progress on expansion so that our foreign ministers could look at what we had set down as criteria and apply themselves and make recommendations to our leaders. And I think the fact that we had consensus from all of the leaders on the six countries, this is a substantial expansion of BRICS. As you know, the last time BRICS was expanded was in 2011 under China's chairship at the sunny summit when South Africa was admitted as a full member. So for the past 12 years, we have not expanded. We did try to look at expansion in 2018 on the South Africa's chairship. We put that as an agenda item, but leaders felt at that stage we needed to consolidate further the cooperation between, between the five of us before we embark on expansion. So expansion was put again on the table under China's chairship, and we worked as a collective. And I believe there was a very positive outcome in terms of us being able to announce the new members. And expansion is an ongoing process.

If you look at any multilateral organization, the EU started with six members in 1957. Today they are 27 members. They have gone through various phases of expansion. The same with ASEAN that started it 1967 with five members. Today, ASEAN is ten and there's a possibility they'll move to 11 members. This Shanghai Corporation organization started at five members and today they're about nine members. So this is normal in any organization that is progressive and also inclusive. And I think you will continue to see many countries will continue to knock on the door of BRICS to say they want to become full members. And we are mindful of this fact that out of the 22 countries, we were only able to admit six.

And as President Ramaphosa announced at the summit, this is the first phase of expansion. He didn't say that expansion is closed. And if you look at Article 92 of the Johannesburg 2 Declaration, the leaders have tasked foreign ministers to look at the issue of developing, modalities for partner countries and to report to the summit next year when the leaders meet in Russia for the 16 BRICS summit. So I think you were continuing seeing countries wanting to become full members and I'm sure that expansion will be considered again going forward, the leaders will have to apply themselves to this because there's a high level of interest from countries from the Global South that would want, to become part of this family.

Guancha: Briefly, what is the consensus on admission criteria that were agreed upon, and also what country are you prioritizing out of the 16 that weren't admitted? Also, why expand now, after over a decade?

Sooklal: The documents that outlines the criteria, standards and guidelines, is internal and confidential, that will now be shared firstly with the six countries. As you know, there was a formal invitation that was made verbally at the summit, but President Ramaphosa is in the process of writing to each of the six heads of state, formally inviting them to become full members and attaching the document criteria which they will have to subscribe to.

Now I can very broadly say that in choosing the six members, we were careful to make sure that they also subscribe to the vision and principles that BRICS stand for: creating a more equitable world, supporting reform of the global governance architecture, political security, financial, economic, the commitment to upholding multilateralism, rejecting unilateralism and of course commitment to a to upholding international law. And of course these are some of the very key tenants that BRICS have subscribed to since its inception. So it's important that the new members also fit into this ethos that governs and guides BRICS cooperation. So these were key principles and of course these countries fully understand that what BRICS stands for, and therefore they apply to become BRICS members. I don't think they'll have difficulty in supporting the values and principles to which BRICS subscribe to and to which they are also keen advocates, often creating a more inclusive world in addressing some of the major fault lines that still exist in the current global governance architecture.

And of course, as I've indicated, they had to be of good standing in the respective regions, countries that playing an important role in their respective region, and of course internationally through the global multilateral system. And as I've also indicated, we also try to look at geographical representation so that BRICS has a good representation from across the region of the Global South. And of course, another very important criteria is that you had to be by a member of the Global South, because BRICS is about developing countries. So these are some of the key principles contained in the document pertaining to the Guiding Principles and criteria.

Between now and the next summer, there'll be no more expansion. We will await the outcome of the minister's consultation in terms of developing modalities for partner countries. Because when we met as Sherpas, we had proposed a modality that first looked at countries becoming full members, like the six now that have been invited, will become full members with equal standing as the existing five members of BRICS. But at the same time, we propose that we should also have a modality looking at partner countries that are very keen to have an association with BRICS, but may not want to be full members. And we have instances of that, where countries have stated that they would like to be associated with BRICS, but have not applied for full membership. So that's the process that our ministers will be busy with over the next year, and come up with recommendations to the leaders at the summit in Russia next year.

Guancha: How would the addition of new members affect the acronym BRICS?

Sooklal: I don't think the acronym will be altered or affected because when you speak of BRICS today, BRICS has become a global brand in a sense. BRICS now signifies certain values and principles that has been championed by BRICS, but not just exclusive to BRICS. The fact that we had at the BRICS Plus and the Africa Outreach, 61 countries in attendance, they all identify with what BRICS stand for.

So BRICS today is not just about five countries. When you use the term BRICS, it's not specifically about these five countries. It's grown beyond that. It's grown, as I've said, into a brand that represents the aspirations of the Global South and what we would like to see in changing the current global architecture, to be more multipolar, to be multi civilizational and multicultural in terms of being representative of the nature of the global community. The global community is not homogeneous. It's highly heterogeneous. And that's the nature of BRICS.

Very often BRICS is criticized in terms of being so heterogeneous, so different in terms of our systems of governance, in terms of our political systems, in terms of our peoples, our cultures and so forth. But this is the richness of BRICS. This is why BRICS function so well. We don't seat to straight jacket everyone into a uniform code of behavior or how they should conduct the internal domestic affairs. We respect the sovereignty. We respect the systems of governance and the political systems of every country. And we value the richness of the traditions of each country, its people's, its culture, its civilization, its cuisine, its modes of dress, its languages. This is the richness of BRICS. And that's the nature of the world. The world is rich because we have such diversity in it. The world is not a uniform society, so why should BRICS be criticized by not having a uniform system of governance between all of us? The strength of BRICS is each one of us bring to the table that diversity and the richness of our traditions and of our systems of governance.

Guancha: Regarding the issue of differences, there has been some concern that these differences might cause issues going forward especially in terms of internal functioning, because some countries within it have somewhat divergent interests, like India and China, and Irana and Saudi Arabia; at the same time, political changes in other countries, like Brazil, and potentially Argentina, where a far-right advocate of “full dollarization” may be elected, leading to fluctuations in their level of engagement. Do you think these concerns are misplaced, and how might BRICS deal with these issues?

Sooklal: BRICS is not a platform for countries to come and settle their differences. It's to provide the platform where they can come and discuss the differences and see if they can find ways and means of addressing these. BRICS is a consensus based organization.

Yes, there are differences between countries. There are tensions between countries. This is normal. It's not unique to the BRICS family. You find this in a large number of multilateral or and regional organizations. The European Union have its own challenges in terms of differences with regard to the Russia Ukraine conflict, for example, and the way some of the Eastern European countries relate to it as against Western European countries. The same with ASEAN in terms of the challenges around Myanmar, you have divergent opinions amongst ASEAN members on this. Likewise, you find this in all regional and multilateral organizations. But it provides a platform where these countries can come and talk to each other. And I think that is important, having a platform where countries may have differences, but they are still able to dialogue on the larger picture and concentrate on what is good for the global community. And bracket for a moment the differences they may have, but look at what as a collective, as important countries of their respective region, as important global powers, how they can work collectively for the good of creating a more equitable global order. And that is what BRICS is about.

The tensions that are there between India and, and China that will be addressed bilaterally. The tensions between Iran and Saudi will be addressed bilaterally. But that doesn't prevent these countries from cooperating on other major global issues, like reform of the global multilateral system, like addressing issues of climate change, like addressing the current challenges we face in terms of the pandemic, the challenges we face in terms of food security, in terms of energy security. And these are key challenges that impacts on all of us. And this is the areas where we apply our minds as a collective and work collectively to address this in a positive manner.

Guancha: You mentioned the European Union, which probably represents the upper limit of how different countries can cooperate. And you see some issues, especially with regard to the Russia Ukraine war, as you just mentioned, where differences of opinion led to them, for example, failing to implement several sanctions packages to considerable international embarrassment. So does this mean that there's a limit to how effective BRICS can be, that while it can be effective in terms of fostering dialogue, it might be less effective in achieving tangible results in other fields?

Sooklal: Well, I think if you look at the areas of cooperation, firstly, within BRICS, we have 20 ministerial tracks and this is increasing. We, as I've said, we, by the time we complete our chairship, we would have hosted close to 200 meetings. Now, the measure of success of our cooperation is not in terms of the number of meetings we host, but the substantive outcome of these meetings. If you look at all of these major tracks, there are substantive outcomes. If you look at science, technology and innovation track, there is over 200 joint research projects that is currently undertaken by our scientists, by our academics and also students. There’s substantive cooperation for the benefit of the BRICS countries.

So I think that's the value that BRICS brings. The success of BRICS must be measured on the practical value it brings to the lives of our people. It must be able to address issues of poverty and underdevelopment. It must address issues of food insecurity, debt relief. These are all issues that have been spoken about by our leaders.

There was a big issue in terms of local currency. And that's why if you look at Article 45 of the declaration, the leaders task finance measures or central bank governors to look at the issue of local currency payment instruments and platform, and to report at the next summit because we are looking at diverse ways of how we conduct our business, our trade and our financial interaction on the global stage and not being dependent on one or two currencies to our disadvantage.

Now, these are major issues and BRICS has been a catalyst. China has created its own payment platform. India has done the same. Russia has done the same because all of the countries of the global south are very anxious because of unilateral sanctions, where funds are frozen. They don't have access to their money as is the case with Russia and Iran. And we are looking at becoming more independent and not being held hostage by one or two countries that apply unilateral sanctions, not recognized by any of the BRICS countries, sanctions not recognized by the United Nations as being the only body that has the task of looking at international sanctions, The Security Council. Therefore, BRICS are able to do practical things. And today the use of local currencies has gone beyond BRICS.

A large number of countries, Africa included, are looking at deepening trade in local currency, borrowing in local currency. The New Development Bank, as you know, has taken a decision that it will increase lending from its current 20% to 30% by 2026 in local currency. They floated the second bond in local currency amongst member states, having floated several bonds on the Chinese Yuan market. They've done so now last month on the South African Rand market. And that bond was oversubscribed. That set a ceiling of 1 billion Rand, but they increase it to 1.5 billion because of the intake by people buying these bonds. And they can see that these are bonds that would grow positively given the track record of the New Development Bank. And this is good news for South Africa because we can start borrowing in Rand terms and save a lot of funds in terms of dollar fluctuation and conversion cost and so forth. And the African Union has taken a decision that in order to facilitate the free trade agreement, countries should deepen trade in local currency and that's why the African Bank has floated the Pan African payment and settlement system. About 10 central banks and over 20 commercial banks have subscribed to this instrument, which is expected to save Africa over $5 billion annually in terms of trade costs. So you can see that BRICS is a catalyst for change on the global front on a number of areas. And this is just one example I'm sharing with you. The repercussions in terms of deepening trade in local currencies and not being dependent on the dollar, the only and including our payment systems that we are not just dependent on the SWIFT system. As I've said, all of the major BRICS countries are now creating their own payment platforms.

Guancha: In the recent interview with Bloomberg, you said that “there’s an unfortunate narrative being developed that BRICS is anti-West, that BRICS was created as competition to the G7 or the Global North, and that is incorrect”. Do you think that your view is shared by all BRICS members? For example, Iran said that it joining BRICS signifies growing opposition to US unilateralism. And Russia has also up made some references to BRICS as a platform for an anti-US agenda.

Sooklal: All 5 of us are unanimous that BRICS is not an anti-West organization. BRICS is an entity that focuses on ourselves, firstly, and secondly on the Global South. And thirdly, in terms of collectively addressing the global challenges and working in partnership with all those that seek to work with us, that share our values, that share our vision in terms of what we would like to see in addressing the global challenges. And that is why you had the Secretary General Antonio Guterres also addressing the BRICS Summit. And he stated that the Global North must do more to address the frustrations of the Global South, the Global South that forms 85% plus of the global population are still being marginalized, are still outliers in terms of major global decision making.

For BRICS, we're five partners and with the addition of the six, there are two additional G20 members. So we would be seven G20 members in the G20; just as you have G7 as seven G20 members. So between G7 and BRICS, we would be fourteen of the 19 countries that make up the G20, the EU being the 20th and hopefully after the summer this weekend in India, the African Union will become a full BRICS member. And I think that's also would be a major boost for the Global South. Because in this day and age, why just the European Union as a full member of the G20? The African Union is bigger, 55 countries, 1.4 billion as against less than 600 million people in the European Union and 27 countries. But because it's a develop western country, you're then given prime place in the G20 and not Africa. And that's why we're saying that BRICS is about championing the cause of Africa. And it is BRICS countries that are pushing for the African Union to become a full member.

We've started this process. South Africa has been calling for this and BRICS countries have been supporting this. Fortunately now the countries of the Global North also supporting this. So we will work with the Global North who share our vision and values to create a more equitable world and not to continue as hegemons dominating the global agenda and determining how the rest of the world should function and what is in our best interest.

We are today collectively as I've said population-wise the majority, and in terms of global GDP, some of your fastest growing economies are still on the Global South. India and China are growing at 5 to 6 percent, several of the African countries are growing at an accelerated pace. The USA is growing at about 1.6%. Most of the European countries are growing under 1%, some even into negative growth. So we are the engine of growth and therefore BRICS is saying we will be at the forefront in shaping the new global architecture. And we will work with all parties, the north and the south, but those that share our vision and aspire to create a more equitable.

Guancha: You are an Indian-South African, a group that is frequently overlooked by international observers of South Africa, despite numbering over one million. Many have described your community as fitting "awkwardly” into modern day South Africa, where a number of political leaders have described politics as being controlled mostly by blacks and the economy controlled by a mostly white minority. Is this somewhat similar to the Chinese community there? How can South Africa fully live up to its potential as the “rainbow nation”?

Sooklal: During apartheid, all those that were not white were categorized as blacks, including myself and so called Indian South Africans. We were all regarded as blacks. We fought in the liberation struggle as Africans. Because I'm first and foremost a South African. I'm third generation South African. I'm not Indian. I'm South African. My identity is South African. I'm born and raised in South Africa. And I do not see myself anything else but a South African national. That's how I'm categorize even in my official documents. My government sees me as a South African. I mean, when I function as the Sherpa of South Africa, I'm not seen as an Indian South African. I'm seen as a South African like any other person that I work with.

And that's the beauty of South Africa. We have this rich diversity of races, of cultures and of peoples and languages. That's why we have 11 official languages and all of the various communities have an equal say and are equally respected through the Constitution of our country. And I think that's the strength of South Africa and that's why President Mandela describes South Africa as a rainbow nation, because we are the most cosmopolitan, most diverse population in the whole of Africa. That's the strength of South Africa.

And I believe that is why we have a program post-apartheid period of national reconciliation. The default lines that existed under the apartheid regime were based on identifying South Africans on the basis of race. This was against the very fabric of what South Africa's democracy stands for and what our constitution describes, where each and every citizen is equally part of South Africa and we are all South Africa.

Guancha: Certainly this makes South Africa seemingly well placed to promote the agenda of the Global South.

Sooklal: It is. South Africa is a country that has come out of colonialism, of apartheid, of imperialism. We have faced all of these difficulties like many of the countries of the Global South. And we understand the pain and discomfort. So therefore, having come from this background, it is important for us to champion for justice, for fairness and for equality and equal representation on the global stage.

I always compare current geopolitical architecture to Apartheid South Africa, where you had a minority determining the fate of majority. And that's what the Global South today is. We are the majority, but a minority, less than a billion people, determines how we function and what is in our best interest. And we are saying that the Global South has risen. Today, China is the second largest global economy and it's predicted within a decade or so, it may become the largest global economy. India is the first largest global economy today, and within a decade or so, it will become the third largest or so. Brazil is a major economy in the top ten of global GDP. So the Global South has changed. Many countries of the Global South are bigger than the G7 today in terms of the economies, in terms of the GDP, in terms of the standard of living, in terms of technology, new science, technology, innovation, leaders in terms of this. So you can't speak of the Global South as being poor and marginalized anymore. And that is why BRICS is there, to champion change for the better, not relegating any community to the margins.

Both north and south, we need to coexist and work together. And that's why President Xi speaks of a community of shared future for mankind. It's precisely the same principle that we have, a shared future, a future where all of us must have equal stake in determining how this future is shaped and how we live side by side in peace and harmony, working collectively for prosperity for all.

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