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以下為部分英文對話原文：

Guancha: You had mentioned in June that the emphasis of the world no longer seems to be purely “it’s the economy, stupid”, as the concept of “security” increasingly takes center stage. How is this trend manifested around the world, and what does this mean for global trade and globalization?

Goralczyk: In at least the previous three decades, all of us, citizens of Poland or European Union, also mainland China, we were, like it or not, under the one slogan, “it’s the economy, stupid”. Some people in China even say that it was “拜金主義”, but this is another story about corruption.

But we were under the dominion of market forces, open markets, globalization forces. After recent events and experiences, mostly the Covid pandemic, and recently what China is calling the Ukrainian crisis, we have a new situation, and the demand and the challenge is growing. We are already under another slogan, another banner: “it’s the security, stupid”.

This is both in European Union and in China. When I see your documents, you have probably 20 or more securities to fight for. So you have food security, water security, energy security, fossil fuel security, space security, cyber security and so on and so forth. In this respect, we are living once again, both in China and the European Union in “新時代”, because we have security as the most demanding issue on our daily agenda.

On the one hand, this is a tremendous challenge, it is a problem, it is a hardship in our bilateral relationship of Poland and China for instance. On the other hand, this is a chance for us to start to talk seriously, to start in depth debates, what we can do together concerning climate, environmental issues, for instance, because environment and climate doesn't recognize borderlines between the countries, between states. We need to do something together.

In 1999, Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe defined a new term, a cooperative security that we have so called global challenges, challenges for the whole humankind. Doesn't matter if you are Chinese, American or European. And in this respect, we need to find a common solutions. We have no other choice. Mr Kerry is coming to Beijing. We need to send a special representatives of the European Union because climate is definitely the issue we can find together. Environmental issues are also very important in this respect.

Guancha: You and other scholars have stressed that we face an era of global challenges that require global solutions.  Some scholars argued that we are in an era of “de-globalization”, with increased tensions and barriers erected between countries. Some argued that BRI is the right path to a new globalization. what is your take on this, and why? What do you think are practical mechanisms and solutions for solving these global challenges?

Goralcyzk: For a long time, at least since 1990s and Francis Fukuyama's famous “The End of History”, we were under the globalization forces’ dominion. China was going a little bit differently due to Deng Xiaoping saying “韜光養晦”, this was a little bit different than all the western word. But still, China was, under Prime minister Zhu Rongji, very strongly engaged in the global marketization, global forces. And China joined in 2001 WTO. So you were also part of this process.

And unfortunately, like it or not, the situation, the circumstances has changed. We had unexpected and very harsh experience with the Covid Pandemic, and right now, we have a real war, unseen since the Second World War, very close to Polish borders. In this respect, we are starting to talk about the de-globalization, not globalization. And some people say that we should go even farther to decouple, to close our connections, connectivities, value chains and so on.

However, I suppose that the Western European approach recently observed that instead of decouple, we should use another term. De-risking is a little bit better. It is still an issue. It is still a problem, it is still a challenge for both sides. However, decoupling is almost a direct war. De-risking is not excluding a dialogue, in depth dialogue of many issues.

I'm quoting Kevin Rudd, former prime minister and foreign Minister of Australia, currently since this year, ambassador of Australia to the US. Surprisingly but not surprisingly for me, he is afraid of a real war in Asia Pacific. In his recent volume, “The War is Avoidable”, he is proposing strategic competition, but managed strategic competition, for which I am voting for, me personally as Bogdan Goralczyk. We are on the opposite sides, but we should continue our dialogue and it should be manageable because we have many global challenges in front of us. And here we have a chance to cooperate and be successful on both sides.

China - Central and Eastern Europe Cooperation, as we know, it was inaugurated by the former prime minister Wen Jiabao in 2012 here in Poland, in Warsaw. I was personally attending his speech at that time. We were in a different time because it was expectation of the new engagement, new involvement, new investment, new opportunities. Everything was new. And China was also a new partner for all of us. However, already in 2014, this situation has changed and we have more and more discrepancies because we have differentiation between the 16 or 17.

On the one hand, you have those countries which are following the footsteps of the previous era, namely Hungary, Serbia, Greece, which are open for further economic cooperation with China. On the other hand, especially the three small Baltic states but followed by for instance, Poland and Romania, we are more and more close allies of the United States of America because of the security reasons. Like it or not, we have a real war on our immediate neighborhood here in Poland. And we have a war mentality, black and white scenarios here. We have Cold War approach.

From this perspective, I do not see any convergence forces inside of Central Europe. I see a lot of divergent forces which are splitting us, dividing us. And for this reason, definitely I am the person who is strongly waiting for the 3rd summit meeting of Belt and Road Initiative, because I'm expecting personally that China will combine your recent three Big Initiatives, Development Initiative, Global Development Initiatives, Security Initiative and Civilization Initiative, and maybe as a merger, as a fusion, something new will emerge and maybe you will have a new proposal.

Guancha: One challenge that the BRI faces, as you noted, is that a number of Chinese firms prefer to take over existing firms, while Poland and other countries would much rather China make brand new investments. What do you think both sides can do to change the mindset or the method of investment?

Goralcyzk: As we have 10 years of experience of our mutual bilateral cooperation, it is visible that our investors, doesn't matter which part of our region, are more interested in so called green field investments, with the investment starting from the very beginning, instead of fusion and mergers, which were at least for some time a preferable solution by the Chinese side. So we have a different approach. And definitely here in Poland but also in our region, we are rather expecting some new investment.

You propose something right now in Hungary, for instance, this electric car batteries factory, which is a huge investment. Definitely, we need to be open for the new proposals. And when you propose something, even the new investment, we need to include two new dimensions into our corporation. First is climate change expectations, because this is a real story and growing and demanding. On the other hand, this is the case of Hungary right now already with this new investment, ecology and environmental issues. Clean energy is needed and we are expecting something from the clean energy sector to be a part of the solution.

Another dimension is taking into account our harsh memories from the last time, namely the Covid Pandemic. Some health initiatives in the health sector is also definitely welcome from the Chinese side. We need to search for the new agenda of our cooperation. And here definitely there will be some different approaches from the countries in our region. However, Poland is crucial because we are between Russia and Germany. And definitely what Germany will do in a bilateral relationship with China is also very important for us.

And of course, most of the 16+1 Central and Eastern European partners of China are the members of the European Union. So their requirements, especially ecological, environmental and climate requirements of the European Union need to be taken into account as well.

We are open here in Poland also for continuation, we have trains connection with Sichuan, Chengdu, and it is mostly going through Poland on the land, and going to Germany and Western Europe. Here we are also open and we are ready for modernization of this sector.

Guancha: What do you think will be Poland’s place in the BRI going forwards, given both the challenges and opportunities that we have discussed?

Goralcyzk: Everyone, especially the observers of China and East Asia region is expecting the results of the BRI 3rd Summit. I am convinced that there will be some new proposals. Poland is as a country right now deeply engaged and involved into the war in Ukraine. We are very important connection, communication, transportation hub for all western partners, Western European, NATO member states and also US. This is all obvious. So what I would say that we are expecting the end of war on our neighborhood. And at that time, when Ukraine will start hopefully to be renovate it again and start to be reinvested, we can do something more with China. During the war, our openness is narrow because we are under this mentality of Cold War and war mentality.

Second, when will the war end in Ukraine? We hope that as soon as possible. But as we see, both sides of the conflict are not declaring that they are open for negotiations. They are ready to fight. Unfortunately, both Russians and Ukrainians. So we don't know when they the war will end.

And finally, we are expecting also here in Poland the new Germany strategy towards China. Much of Poland’s trade volume is with Germany alone. So what Germany is doing will have an impact on Polish side, definitely. And finally, last but not least, Poland is as a democratic country, we are already in election campaign. We will have a new elections in mid of October. And Poland is like US, strongly polarized. We are divided also. It will have a very strong impact on our international behavior.

Guancha: What has been the effect of the Russia-Ukraine War on the BRI, especially Poland’s place in it, given that parts of the railway passes through Russia?

Goralcyzk: I already mentioned about this railway. We understand, at least those who are engaged in international affairs, that this is a very important aspect of our bilateral relationship with China, these trains. We were openly afraid that the war and Russian engagement, Ukrainian engagement, will be an enormous obstacle for this cooperation.

In the case of Ukraine, it is partially. So the southern lines of these trains are not working. But fortunately, the trains are mostly still going, because Belarus is not engaged directly into the conflict yet, so we have direct connection with Belarus. And on the borderline, the most important hub, Ma?aszewicze, is open. So we survived the most demanding times. And let's hope that we will have these open gates after the war. During the war, you cannot expect too much because the uncertainty is everywhere, unfortunately.

Guancha: It seems that Poland’s support for Ukraine is still with its limits, even temporarily banning Ukrainian grain imports a few weeks ago. Does this reflect an evolving of its broader position, in response to practical concerns?

Goralcyzk: You are asking me about the problems with Polish relationship with Ukraine, and you mentioned grain. We have not only grain, we have raspberry right now. But I will define it a different way. First of all, what is important and what should be shared also with the Chinese audience, Poland is the country which absorbed more than 6 million Ukrainian inhabitants. Since the beginning of the crisis management situation, more than 6 million Ukrainians crossed our borders. At least one million and a half out of them, many women and young children are staying.

This is a tremendous challenge because Poland, until this war, was homogeneous country. More than 98% of the citizens were Polish. We have no 55 minorities like in a People's Republic of China. We have right now finally a minority like prior to the Second World War.

And this is a new challenge for all of us, for our educational system, for our working force, for our Social Security net. And we have a debate. Fortunately, until now, we have no prejudice towards the Ukrainians because we realize that those are real refugees, that they are really fighting and we need to help them. And it was not government initiated proposal. It was bottom up behavior of Polish citizens. We have shown again that Poland is the cradle of Solidarity. And this is the most important thing in our relationship with Ukraine.

Secondly, we are fighting for Ukrainian interest like for our own. We have polish strategic tradition which says as follows: Russia without Ukraine, Russia separated from Ukraine is Russian Federation proper. But when Russia will be united with Ukraine again, it will be not Russian Federation, it will be Russian Empire again on our borders. You have “百年國恥”, or 100 years of humiliation. We have more than 100 years of invasions by the Russia as the Empire. And we would like not to have Russia as an empire, as an our immediate neighbor on the whole borderline.

And finally, the third dimension is our bilateral trade. Here we have discrepancies, again, division lines because we have European Union policy. European Union as an independent player is mostly trade, where it is a big power. On the other hand, it is soft power. But in this respect, we need here in Warsaw, here in Poland to adjust ourselves to the requirements of the European Union. And sometimes it doesn't work because European Union want as much as possible the Ukrainian Grains, Ukrainian fruits, food items, agriculture items, while Poland is invaded by them and has some headaches, some problems because of this.

Guancha:  In the long term, what do you think Poland’s position towards Russia will be?

Goralcyzk: We will remain, whatever happens, a part of western alliance, which means that our bilateral relationship with the People's Republic of China will be more demanding and more difficult, because I realize that we have clash of powers, big power clash between the US and China, like it or not. And we see US And NATO as the only security guarantee. We cannot expect that China or someone else, India, for instance, will come and give us any security guarantees.

In my first response to your first question, that we have security surrounding us in all aspects, in all dimensions, we are feeling ourselves insecure. And for this reason, I am predicting and I am not alone, definitely not, that our relationship, bilateral relationship with Chinese Mainland will be troubled. But we hope that when the war will be over, we can go back to our trade relationship, to climate change. We can specify some issues, some dimensions, some fields of cooperation. And as I mentioned, we are still closed on the one side with Russia, but on the other side with Germany. And Germany, as you know, is trying to be engaged. Now, we are not for decoupling, we are maybe for the de-risking. Yes, this is a new term, as you know, from March this year, very fashionable also here in Poland.

We should avoid something strange. And China is neighbor of our neighbor. So by definition, you are our friend, neighbor of our neighbor is our friend. This is a Polish 成語, if you wish. In this respect, I am predicting some obstacles, barriers and hardships, but I'm rather optimistic on one condition: let's stop the war. Let's stop the fighting.

Guancha: Poland used to frequently join with Hungary to veto certain decisions by the EU. However, it appears that the two have increasingly drifted apart after the start of the Russia-Ukraine War. Do you think the two will return to its previously close relationship? What about Poland’s relationship with the EU?

Goralcyzk: Here situation is much more complicated than in your question. I spent almost a decade of 1990s in Budapest, Hungary. And from this perspective, we see, and you see even from Beijing or Shanghai, that Polish authorities and Hungarian authorities are behaving themselves differently. Mr Orban, who led the country for some 13 years when he came to his strong power in 2010, almost immediately declared so called Keleti Nyitás or the eastern Bound, the Eastern Partnership, meaning partnership with Russia, with China, Central Asian states, also India, Japan if possible, but mainly China and Russia. And he is continuing this policy.

As you see even the in recent summit meeting in Vilnius, his opposition was different than all the others from the European Union. So when the clash and war and crisis situation has happened between Russian in Ukraine, Mr Orban is continuing this policy and we have a clash between Budapest and Warsaw. We are on the opposite side of the barricade, we are ally within NATO in Warsaw, while Mr Orban is continuing his cooperation with Mr Putin and Russian Federation. So in a security dimension concerning NATO, a Visegrad cooperation of four countries, Hungary, Poland, Czechia and Slovakia is in a refrigerator. It is frozen.

But on the other hand, prior to the Vilnius NATO Summit meeting, a week before, we had a EU summit meeting. During the EU summit meeting, Poland and Hungary together had different opinion concerning refugees and some other issues than the European union, European institutions starting from commission and the parliament. So when the European integration is concerned, Poland is still cooperating as previously with Mr Orban because both countries are not observing, according to the authorities in Brussels, the dimensions and demands of the rule of law. So we have a problem with the European Union. And here we have a common position, at least until the election in Poland in mid October, because public opinion polls shows that nobody knows who will be the winner.

In this respect, I would say that Poland and Hungary on one side have split, on the other side are still cooperating. But altogether combined, Visegrad is not working well, like 16+1 also collapsed to some extent because I mentioned to you in one of my previous answers that we have these divergent forces and differentiation between the states in our region.

I would like to have close cooperation, but I suspect that it is impossible as for now, because we have this clash of civilizations, we have a hard power politics, we have a structural Thucydides trap (as far as I know, Graham Allison books is also popular and known in China). We have a power politics and in this respect, Mr Orban is in the opposite side. He sees his security different way than Poland. Within NATO, Mr Orban is strictly linked for instance, with Recep Erdogan, with Turkey to such an extent that his he was expecting what Turkey would do with the NATO membership of Sweden, as you know. And when Erdogan finally declared that Turkey will allow Sweden to participate and be a member, only then did Mr Orban follow the footsteps. But we are still waiting for the voting in Hungarian parliament, which will not take place definitely during the summer season, only later this year in autumn. And you who knows what will happen in two or three months time. We have a very dynamic situation in our immediate neighborhood. In this respect, I'm rather expecting turbulent relationship, especially if the opposition wins, because Polish opposition is not only pro US, it's also pro EU, while current Polish government and Mr Orban have a lot of headaches, a lot of problems unresolved and a lot of barriers with the European Union.

By the way, when you are asking a question like this, be careful not to say a Polish side. There's no Polish side. It depends to which political tribe you belong to. And you will have on the same question very different answers, maybe with the exception of NATO and US alliance, but all the others, especially relationship with Germany, with France, with Western Europe, with the European Union, with even trans-Atlantic relationship. Here you have divergence again.

Guancha: Let’s talk about EU’s approach towards China. It seems to me that EU, not necessarily dividing between west and east, has contradictory approaches dealing with China: de-risking and positioning China as systemic rival on one hand, promoting trade and economic cooperation on the other, can these two approaches coexist? Will Europe have a coherent strategy at the end of the day?

Goalcyzk: You have no unified European Union. You have different countries. You have different political parties, you have different opinions, you have different attitudes. To my mind, what is crucial for China and also for our bilateral relationship is the final answer of Germany and France, what to do currently with relationship with China. As you know, Mr Macron is strongly supporting it, which was a reason for big debate here in Poland and in Europe.

Germany prepared its first strategy towards China. For me, it is a kind of a compass, a strategic direction what to do next.

I'm deeply convinced that, like it or not, due to the recent events, especially on the Ukrainian territory, both Germany but also France lost Russia as a market, Nord Stream does not exist anymore, and for only this reason, both Germany and France and partially even Italy or Spain, they cannot just manage to lose strong trade and business relationship with China. When the Russian market is lost, Chinese market cannot be lost. So I am quite optimistic here in this respect. I am expecting some kind of engagement, but conditional, partial. As you know, some people say that China is our systemic rival, we are democratic countries. One person will say China is a partner, China is a solution. China is a competitor, China is a challenge. For some even China is a threat. And we have different opinions here.

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